Comments on: Black. White. http://www.profswitzer.com/blog/2009/07/black-white/ Economics, Politics, Entertainment and Life in Academia Thu, 29 Jul 2010 22:41:45 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: ProfSwitzer http://www.profswitzer.com/blog/2009/07/black-white/comment-page-1/#comment-3297 ProfSwitzer Sun, 02 Aug 2009 05:19:38 +0000 http://www.profswitzer.com/blog/?p=940#comment-3297 How do you know that there was no probable cause for search or seizure in the Holder stop, Benjamin? You don't. You assume it, and are thus willing to accept that the stop was a case of racial profiling. You rightly presume innocence for the driver being pulled over. Yet you presume guilt for the cop for pulling the driver over. How do you know that there was no probable cause for search or seizure in the Holder stop, Benjamin? You don’t. You assume it, and are thus willing to accept that the stop was a case of racial profiling. You rightly presume innocence for the driver being pulled over. Yet you presume guilt for the cop for pulling the driver over.

]]> By: Benjamin Seghers http://www.profswitzer.com/blog/2009/07/black-white/comment-page-1/#comment-3293 Benjamin Seghers Sat, 01 Aug 2009 23:48:13 +0000 http://www.profswitzer.com/blog/?p=940#comment-3293 I agree with you that someone cannot actually know for sure the reason a cop pulled them over or interrogated them. Perhaps that may only be known to the cop. So, yes, it's a very difficult task to prove racial profiling. I don't think it's impossible though. There are studies that show systemic racial profiling occurring within the United States. Proving any one particular circumstance was racial profiling is probably impossible without an admission by the officer. But given the evidence that racial profiling is a reality and absent any probable cause for search or seizure, I still cannot fault Holder for making a fairly rational assumption that he was being profiled because of his race. I agree with you that someone cannot actually know for sure the reason a cop pulled them over or interrogated them. Perhaps that may only be known to the cop. So, yes, it’s a very difficult task to prove racial profiling. I don’t think it’s impossible though. There are studies that show systemic racial profiling occurring within the United States. Proving any one particular circumstance was racial profiling is probably impossible without an admission by the officer. But given the evidence that racial profiling is a reality and absent any probable cause for search or seizure, I still cannot fault Holder for making a fairly rational assumption that he was being profiled because of his race.

]]> By: ProfSwitzer http://www.profswitzer.com/blog/2009/07/black-white/comment-page-1/#comment-3276 ProfSwitzer Fri, 31 Jul 2009 22:33:42 +0000 http://www.profswitzer.com/blog/?p=940#comment-3276 I'm not going to argue the legal issue of whether the scene the professor made outside his house rose to the level of "disorderly conduct" as I was not there. The issue is whether race had any role in it -- Gates thinks it must be so and you can't convince him otherwise. Crowley insists it had nothing to do with it. As for Holder, you're missing my point entirely, Benjamin. I was stopped and they asked to search my trunk when I felt they had no reasonable suspicion to do so. But I had nothing to hide, so I didn't protest it at all. After the fact, I tried to explain why they went through my trunk, and I think it's because of my license plate frame. I don't KNOW that I was profiled for that reason, which is what I wrote in the post. It may have been my demeanor. Maybe my eyes were a little bloodshot due to lack of sleep. But I came up with what I think was a likely explanation. So did Holder, with his explanation being his race. Maybe Holder was nervous too, so they wanted to check his trunk. How does he know it was because of race? He doesn't -- only the officer knows. He just assumes it and states it as if it were an undisputed fact. If I had been black, I likely would have thought my trunk search was also because of my race. So I'm not faulting Holder for doing it. But I think it's too easy to say that every time a black person is stopped it's racial profiling, which is what Holder did here and what Gates did as well. My point was that we all bring an explanation to our individual situations based on what we have experienced. It seems that some people, that explanation is often based on race, whether justified by the facts or not. It's a "post hoc ergo proper hoc" analysis that is not always based on verifiable facts. I’m not going to argue the legal issue of whether the scene the professor made outside his house rose to the level of “disorderly conduct” as I was not there. The issue is whether race had any role in it — Gates thinks it must be so and you can’t convince him otherwise. Crowley insists it had nothing to do with it.

As for Holder, you’re missing my point entirely, Benjamin. I was stopped and they asked to search my trunk when I felt they had no reasonable suspicion to do so. But I had nothing to hide, so I didn’t protest it at all. After the fact, I tried to explain why they went through my trunk, and I think it’s because of my license plate frame. I don’t KNOW that I was profiled for that reason, which is what I wrote in the post. It may have been my demeanor. Maybe my eyes were a little bloodshot due to lack of sleep. But I came up with what I think was a likely explanation. So did Holder, with his explanation being his race. Maybe Holder was nervous too, so they wanted to check his trunk. How does he know it was because of race? He doesn’t — only the officer knows. He just assumes it and states it as if it were an undisputed fact. If I had been black, I likely would have thought my trunk search was also because of my race. So I’m not faulting Holder for doing it. But I think it’s too easy to say that every time a black person is stopped it’s racial profiling, which is what Holder did here and what Gates did as well. My point was that we all bring an explanation to our individual situations based on what we have experienced. It seems that some people, that explanation is often based on race, whether justified by the facts or not. It’s a “post hoc ergo proper hoc” analysis that is not always based on verifiable facts.

]]> By: Benjamin Seghers http://www.profswitzer.com/blog/2009/07/black-white/comment-page-1/#comment-3274 Benjamin Seghers Fri, 31 Jul 2009 21:52:14 +0000 http://www.profswitzer.com/blog/?p=940#comment-3274 I really don't think the issue was that the officer was investigating the call or asked the professor for his ID. I think the issue was that the officer arrested the professor after 1) refusing to identify himself to the professor and 2) already being aware the professor did indeed reside in that house. As for Holder's story, you point out that you were profiled for having a certain license plate frame. I doubt that Holder had a license plate frame from a university that would suggest he's likely to be transporting weed. Absent that, I certainly don't fault Holder for thinking that perhaps he was being profiled for race. I really don’t think the issue was that the officer was investigating the call or asked the professor for his ID. I think the issue was that the officer arrested the professor after 1) refusing to identify himself to the professor and 2) already being aware the professor did indeed reside in that house.

As for Holder’s story, you point out that you were profiled for having a certain license plate frame. I doubt that Holder had a license plate frame from a university that would suggest he’s likely to be transporting weed. Absent that, I certainly don’t fault Holder for thinking that perhaps he was being profiled for race.

]]> By: Janice http://www.profswitzer.com/blog/2009/07/black-white/comment-page-1/#comment-3256 Janice Thu, 30 Jul 2009 18:04:31 +0000 http://www.profswitzer.com/blog/?p=940#comment-3256 Great post, Dave. Great post, Dave.

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